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 The APP process and returning players

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lucasp
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PostSubject: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:04 pm

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I think that as a core raider with lifetime attendance of 95% I should be entitled to some kind of perk. I am on for raids and stay until the end and not bail out when we fail an event all day after 2 or 3 attempts. We have alot of returning players that some even jumped ship and joined another raiding guild. For them to return as a full member I cry foul and quite simply look at it as a slap in the face for all my hard work. I think it is not too much to ask that they go through the app process again....showing up for raids for AT least two weeks, and then having their attendance and dkp wiped as all apps go through to join guild. These people chose to quit guild, and I think there should be some form of penalty to even the playing field for those of us that show up for raids day in and day out. I made two comments tonight and was told to quit spamming guild chat with my opinion. I will say whatever is on my mind whenever I choose and don't need some part time raiders to tell me when to speak. Enough said...I hope all have something to add to this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:49 am

History has proven that when logic is shown the one that does not like the fact then makes personal attacks to discredit the person providing the logic.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:03 am

FawnTemplar wrote:
I guess what I don't understand is why someone leaving to be with their friends is so bad. This is a game and we all come on to enjoy ourselves...at least I hope we do. I can understand the want to be with your friends in game. That is the reason GH is my home, this is where my friends are, where my family is. I understand that being down one player can be a detriment so in that way it does set the guild back in raiding, but you guys make it seem like if a person leaves then they are no longer your friend. Like they are no longer a friend of the guild. Like when someone leaves then all the good they did for the guild is gone, like it never happened. I don't understand how the chance that someone might leave the guild in the future negates what they can do for the guild now. There is a chance any one of us could leave the guild at some point in the future (except maybe Spine) but we don't hold that against each other. I am trying really hard to see both sides of this argument, I am not posting trying to start crap, I just want to understand. 

For me I guess it just comes back to, I think the officers and leader need to have a discussion so that they can decide what they think is best for the guild and then lay it in stone and stick to it. Daura is right, there should be something said about this in the code of conduct that way the policy is there for all to read. As always I support our leadership in their decisions and will do my best to be and upstanding member of this guild.

You were booted plain and simple by inactive status.  Sarkus does this on occasion when he gets upset at raids or has a bug in his troll helmet.  That is the officer situation. But guild hopping is the concern, Not spring cleaning. I hope you are able to get this issue resolved. I actually thought you were still in guild and was not aware that you were removed from the guild.  As for Fungy, I remember him being a good guy. But, that has been a while. I do not think he left guild for another guild, I think he was put on spring cleaning list as well.  Teflahn. I like Teflahn. He is a good ranger and knows his character very well. The only issue I see with him is the reason why he left the guild. He said he made a mistake by leaving. I know that feeling all too well. The difference is I just log off and do not raid. And Rokuu, he falls in that boat as well. But more than that, noone remembers if he was good or bad. He was just there. There are others that came over from AH that are just here and there types, and I believe this to be the case with Rokuu. If I recall correctly, a slew of new members came from there, and have not progressed much. I can name a few,but I will have more respect for their inability to play the game, or the desire to become a better player.


Last edited by Rhayzer on Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:15 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:06 am

Darkman, as i stated, 2 weeks is not long enough to prove someone commitment anyway. I dont care how long ive bene gone and how long you've been around. I've been playing for 13 years and its the same withe very guild. Look at the logic of the situation. There's no necessary need to put someone coming back thats already proven themselves on a 2 week app process. it proves NOTHING. they have to prove them selves by raising their attendance anyway or they do not get anything. If i had left on poor terms then id understand the probation process to gauge the situation. But i didn't i made it very clear why i left and it was pleasant. I spent over a year in GH so its not like i joined and robbed the guild and left. When I prove that i can raise my attendance to a point where i can earn loot then that should prove enough to you guys and that should be the end of it. None of this affects any of you in any way shape or form so i truly don't see the issue. All that's going on here is people stirring up unnecessary drama and making it a stressful process for GH to grow. I don't think any of us should get to keep our old DKP at all (except Fawn who has a different situation entirely) but we shouldn't have to app again as old GH members on good terms.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:17 am

u are not even getting the point i did not say prove yourself i want to see if you are going to stick it out as for GH growing we have bean and they put in there app time as u should the same way like all others khanix dare ellmo me and more so be a man and do it like rest of us . you should have to app then get reset to full member to get % agin not hard to get 30% . and in no way is this about fawn she did not leave on her own i welcome her back with open arms great druid good person
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:34 am

Darkman, the point is proven.  The discussion falls on silent ears. The only thing I can gather from this thread is that we need to make the application process longer because it seems to have failed the first time.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:37 am

Rokuu wrote:
I've been playing for 13 years and its the same withe very guild. Look at the logic of the situation.

Same guild? Which ones? Because you were only here a year before you bounced. And then you left for Lunacy, and bounced. So that is not the same guild in 13 years.
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Daura
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:53 am

I have to agree with some of what Fawn said.  

Also...In a sense...I should fall into the category of returning member.  Yes I logged in once in a while and kept up with the forums during my absence....but I missed a huge chunk of progression because the chemotherapy stole my strength...so in the absence "For whatever reason" as Coledarr stated would then apply to me.

Perhaps a solution can be found, not in making the application method apply across the board to anyone wishing to wear our guild tag....but maybe a whole new set of standards for returning members. Perhaps re-applying with a different application, and let Sarkus set what requirements are to be made for returning members.  Maybe have it a minimum of a two week wait on becoming Full members again, so that the heated discussions can be handled here, tagged to their application, instead of clogging up guildchat with it.  You know...something that would make everyone happy and satisfy all parties involved.

Also, im pretty sure this forum software comes with the ability to create Polls that can be voted on... Smile


Just tossing some ideas out.  I love you
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:06 am

daura no this is not about u in any way we all miss u and send  our best wishes always not about just how long your gone it is about leaving on your own ind returning not evin about leaving for other  guilds if u leave on your own and want to return u should have to re-app
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Daura
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:30 am

Yes, I can agree with that also.  But not the same application that new members have to fill out.  New members have that app to get to know them a little beforehand.  We already know the returning members.  I am proposing a new form to fill out if you are returning, with different questions.  We know who they are, we know how they raided....perhaps its just a matter of a formality..

Im willing to do the work to get it going, but Sarkus must agree to what ever is decided first, and then set the standards.  Its not going to be an overnight solution, but perhaps something we can all discuss.  Some of the returning members busted their asses to get the DKP they had...and for reasons of inactivity (for any reason), leniency should be used where DKP is concerned.

My old guild on Tribunal would take back former members ONE time if they left for another guild, but the guild voted on whether they wanted them back or not....5 no's for ANY legitimate reason, and they did not get back in.  (legitimate did not include "I just dont like him/her")

Lets post some ideas for a way to solve this rather than fighting over it.  Got an idea how to fix this...post it!  

Goodnight all..

-Daura
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:10 am

Interesting discussion i completely missed it seems. Anyways....

As a Part-Time Raider these days (i might've been Hardcore in the past, no idea) and due to RL (tending to my mother, having severe mental issues last couple months) things weren't really looking good. I was away at least 3 months straight from the Guild and the Raids. Same thing with Daura due to her Cancer therapy and such. And i bet there be other examples of how RL gets in your way of getting some downtime and relaxation in EQ and thus being unable to contribute to GH.

As for suggestions how to solve the returning member thing, i only have these thoughts in my mind:

If a returnee was in GH years ago, and had to quit / leave due to RL issues, give him / her App Status first, see if they can keep up with the 30% in 30 Days attendance at least. It's nice to see old faces, but if there is no visible chance that the person can be a boon to Raids and thus support the Guild there is no reason to invite them as full members anymore. 

If a returnee wants to return but left on bad terms with the Guild or was known for his / her overall negative behavior (Vanquisher comes to mind as example), there needs to be a vote by the Guild OR people telling Sarkus "Yes or No" on the person involved. Personally, if someone stirred up too much crap in the past they don't get a 2nd chance, even if they're changed to the better. Which probably is a good Reality Check for some.

If a returnee has been removed because Sarkus grabbed broom and shovel and completely wiped them out, leaving no trace of DKP either....well, i guess thats bad luck but it has happened before and will happen again. I personally wouldn't like it either but i'd go along with it and start from scratch or i don't.

That's all i currently got on the topic in my mind.




“When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When
many people suffer from a delusion it is called a Religion.”

― Robert M. Pirsig
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:27 am

Daura wrote:
 We already know the returning members.

Do we know the returning members? Let's rephrase that statement.  They are not returning members. They are former members who found us lacking and chose to divorce themselves from us to gain friendship, loot, and  better raid times.  An application is a nice way to refresh our memories especially if they left for another guild because of greener pastures (better raid times, friends that don't play, and better loot).
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:11 am

First let me clarify my situation real quick. Yes, I was kicked in spring cleaning, No my DKP was not wiped, it was just lost with the old DKP site. I was just not there to tell someone how much DKP I had at the time. 

I think this whole thing is tricky because for me there seems to be too many extenuating circumstances and too many mitigating factors to consider. I honestly believe that there are legit reasons to need to leave a guild. Ones for which you should not be penalized. Raiding times for example, we have all been there where our schedule changes for a bit and we can't make as many raids as we would like. I think that if someone had a permanent (or at least permanent for the foreseeable future) schedule change that makes it so that they can not keep up their raiding percentage I don't think they should be looked down on for going to another guild in which they can raid full time. If circumstances change in the future and they are able to come back, personally I think all the better for us because at least they kept up with the game and didn't quit all together. Those kinds of things are just life and it happens to us all so I hope that whatever policy gets adopted can reflect a certain understanding that life happens and can get in the way a lot. I know there are going to be members that say "Well I am always at raid, nothing ever comes up for me" Personally I think that is fantastic for them, but more often than not life has a way of throwing us sometimes. 

Even though I don't think returning members should have to app again (I know you all did Dark and I don't think you should have had to either) I think that Daura's idea has some real merit to it. Rokuu's main point was that the current applications process isn't really fitting to the situation of the returning member and I have to agree. I also see the points made about wanting to have a say on whether people should be allowed back and also proving that they are committed to GH. Having said that, I think Daura's idea of having a separate application process for returning members is probably the best that both sides can ask for at this point. Will it make everyone happy? No. However, I do think that it is a good compromise. Making the application more applicable to returning members and also coming up with some way to gauge dedication within the guild would probably go a long way to fixing this whole thing. Maybe instead of the 2 week app where DKP and RA% get wiped at the end make it so that returning members are on probation for 3 weeks and they have to get a higher RA% (maybe 40% - 50%) but at the end of their probation they can keep their DKP and RA%. As far as bids go, put them on the same level as Apps until the period of probation is over. 

Just tossing out some more ideas.  Idea

By way of a P.S. 

I was just reading some random stuff on the forums and looked at the thread called "Returning Player" in the chit chat section. Sarkus says in a post that old players need not apply only be on for invite. *shrug* I just saw it so I thought I would bring it to the attention of all. I don't know what this players circumstance was or anything, I guess I am pointing it out as part of one of my previous points that some of these rules are not being applied to all in the same way.


Last edited by FawnTemplar on Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:29 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : added info)
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 9:11 am

Seems to be a few issues here.1)People leave for extended period of time.2)People leave the guild for another guild.3)DKP should never be touched.
1)Sarkus cleans the roster from time to time and he is guild leader.
2)People leave the guild for another guild,I believe instant DKP wipe.And the question is how many times Sarkus allows this.
3) People should take a a leave of absence and keep DKP.My opinion not fair to the people that continue to dedicate the time to further the guild.
And now to this attendance issue.Your Attendance is rewarded with DKP.The more you raid the more DKP you get and the better raid gear you have.And No one and I mean No one doesn't hesitate to bid up other with dkp.So that's what you high attendance gets you.
I know if I retire I take my 401k with me.Never knew GH had a retirement plan??
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:46 pm

It boils down to this.  Some think of this guild as only a family guild. Some think of this guild as only a raiding guild.  There are HUGE differences between those two things.
  Raiding guilds kick players who do not raid. They rarely allow folks who move on to another guild back and if they do treat them like they have never been in the guild before.  Raiding guilds normally decay DKP on inactive players and have very strict rules about bidding with low attendance.  They do this because they realize the folks who make you progress are your hardcore raiders who show up day after day, month after month , year after year.   
  Family guilds invite folks and never kick them.  Embrace former members like long lost family members who have lost their way.  Rarely raid and when they do usually just roll and hardly ever had a DKP system. 
  Grey is the weirdest guild in Everquest.  We are mostly a raiding guild with elements of a strong family guild.  We have very different reasons as members when we join.  Some join because we want to raid, raid a lot and win a lot.  Some join as several have said to be with friends and that we are a family and need to support each other.  This  has caused conflict since the day I joined(both times).  It will always cause conflict.  You can look at the comments on this board and see where the fundamental difference lies.
  As to some comments about it being personal.  To me it is not personal.  I feel like a set standard based on raiding guilds should be applied.  I joined this guild to raid.  Which is why- even with folks I don't have the warm fuzzes for- I can still raid with them.  Every time someone wanted to kick out Rivit (who I could not stand, I do not think that is secret) I sent Sarkus a tell saying don't kick him he is a good raider.  So of course, I am going to want folks who leave us to RAID with another guild, to  be treated like new folks.  To me they are new folks. 
  As to folks who leave for long periods of time without joining another guild.  Follks, I leave that all in Sarkus' hands.  I have stated more than once I believe in decaying DKP, unless there are extremely extenuating circumstances( illness, military service etc).  However since we are this weird hybrid of raiding/family guild- that will more than likely never happen -and I have resigned myself to that. I just think that some of those who join to be in family guild need to give some on the application process for those of us who join to be in a raiding guild.  Compromise is the key.


Ellmadar cat
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lucasp
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:15 pm

If you want to get technical, the app process is 30 days. Rakuu says he left guild to be with friends? So you didn't have any friends in GH? I have friends in other guilds and on different servers but I keep my ass here in GH. Again I will say I find it ironic that we make it to T4 raids and new expansion and all of a sudden here come the returning players and the rats that jumped ship. I think you should have to prove your commitment to helping this guild by raiding and just look at the dkp roster to see who's doing what with raids.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 2:41 pm

Rapor you have a valid point.  But the term friends can be either In Game Friends or Real Life Friends (or invisible ones if you are that mentally lucky)

Perhaps his friends he moved for were real life friends that got together at one persons house from time to time to raid/group/slack whatever...I can see where being in the same guild can make that *more fun*.

Anyhoo.....The officers have already started chit chatting about this, and Sarkus plans to address this issue at raids today...so if you have an opinion or suggestion, then I would plan on raiding today.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:16 pm

I think that all returning members should have to reapply.  I think there should be some point or number of returns we let people make.  In fact I think those that left for another raiding guild should have a longer app process than the original time frame.  People need to to know that deguilding whether leaving in anger/ or for greener pastures has consequences.

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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:42 pm

Fawntemplar is returning. Others are Former members. Let's get it right.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:48 pm

Serveus was returning player, removed because of inactivity and he had to reapp. He had no problem with it and Im wondering why this is even an issue. He was/is a very good player I might add.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:07 pm

Ill add to this by ALSO saying, How does bringing level 95-96 with no gear on tier 4 raids helping us.  If you cant liver through a boss DD or have no clue how to do the content aren't you just being carried?

I joined the guild at level 95 i also HAD to have 3k AA to even apply. But that was also when we were starting tier 1 content. Bringing someone of this level on a tier 4 raid doesn't help us IMO. If a healer is dead THEY CAN'T HEAL , and now need to be rezzed and rebuffed which means that person is now not doing their NORMAL JOB. 

My 2 cents

Tormi
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:59 am

Hey everyone! I see everyone voicing their opinions and just thought I would share mine.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Thu Jan 16, 2014 2:45 am

i agree with rapor about most except a person that quit for real life only to come back.  lets say i returned. sure id app if i had to but fuck that, im awesome.  keeping my dkp?  sure id zero out if i had to but fuck that.  I worked my ass off for every point, every hour every day.  how about you put a month ban on residual dkp? or put a cap of 1 item per day with a max of 100 for a month.  call it a re entry program.
anyhow, just a thought....
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