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 The APP process and returning players

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lucasp
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PostSubject: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:04 pm

I think that as a core raider with lifetime attendance of 95% I should be entitled to some kind of perk. I am on for raids and stay until the end and not bail out when we fail an event all day after 2 or 3 attempts. We have alot of returning players that some even jumped ship and joined another raiding guild. For them to return as a full member I cry foul and quite simply look at it as a slap in the face for all my hard work. I think it is not too much to ask that they go through the app process again....showing up for raids for AT least two weeks, and then having their attendance and dkp wiped as all apps go through to join guild. These people chose to quit guild, and I think there should be some form of penalty to even the playing field for those of us that show up for raids day in and day out. I made two comments tonight and was told to quit spamming guild chat with my opinion. I will say whatever is on my mind whenever I choose and don't need some part time raiders to tell me when to speak. Enough said...I hope all have something to add to this thread.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:07 pm

/agree.. with everything lucasp just said.. as I have a lifetime of 93 pct.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:09 pm

I do not look at it as a penalty.  They are new to guild( whether they once had the GH tag or not), and must follow ALL applicable rules.  period
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:14 pm

Yes, I concur.
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Ellmadar
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:24 pm

Hold on to your hats, I rarely agree with Lucasp(as our spats suggest) but on this we are totally in agreement.
I will also add the view point of someone who did leave this guild to raid with another raid force.  I felt the need to leave to try something new.  I left about 1000 DKP when I left on purpose.  After six months gone I realized that I did not like the game when I was not in the same guild as my husband. I contacted Sarkus and was told I could just come back as a regular member.  He said I did not have to app.  I told him I left the guild of my own free will and should have to app when I came back.  I earned almost 600 dkp during those two weeks( we had a lot of first time wins) at the end of my two weeks I had my dkp my  100 percent attendance( or whatever it was after two weeks I never missed a raid) reset.  Ellrezzer then gave me back half of my earned dkp since I was sad( or bitchy your call) about losing so much I think it totaled 264 or something like that.
If as Sarkus says they can prove themselves then do what you did with me, have them raid full time during their two weeks reset them and give them back half their dkp if they raid full time.
We need some standards in this guild.  We let folks keep dkp for years with no decaying.  We only have to have 30  percent to bid against full time raiders.  If you leave to raid with another guild you need to PROVE yourself a little bit more than being brought back as a full member.
That being said all of us need to respect each other more than we do.  We are HORRID from the top down( YES YOU SARKUS) at being nasty and mean- spirited to each other and that really does need to stop. We can hate each other on our own time with tells.
Many times I hear that there should never be a need to put a guild mate on ignore.  That will never be realized unless the officers start having standards of behavior clearly defined and enforce them fairly to everyone.  I found out tonight that a guild leader can make it so that a person cannot speak in guild, good god I have no idea why myself and quite a few others have not been banned from running our mouths in guild already.  What a great way to say stop being an ass in guild.


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Last edited by Ellmadar on Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:29 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Daura
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:24 pm

OK I just read through the Code of Conduct (which needs updating), and on this subject there is nothing outlining that a returning member must re-app.  Actually it doesnt say much about returning members. (Whether they left from being inactive or because they joined another guild)  SO if it is decided that they should re-app then I will be happy to add it to the Code of Conduct AS WELL AS the News page of the DKP site...(which needs updating also)

Now...for my opinion.

Yes I agree they should Re-apply to the guild, if nothing else but to allow the rest of us to voice opinions rather than clutter up guild chat while others are trying to enjoy the game.. 

Think about this....IF you leave a real life job to go to work for someone else...and wish to return to that job, you are required re-apply, and any benefits you might have gotten when you were at the job before, are automatically wiped (UNLESS you work for a really good company and those are rare).  

Same can be applied to this situation.  If you want back in...just re-apply!  You cant spend any DKP until you reach 30% Attendance ANYWAY....and you know for a fact it doesn't take long to re-accumulate DKP and/or Attendance...and your patience and understanding about this goes a long way with many guild members you are returning to...

However....because they were members before, I feel it is up to Sarkus whether they come back as Recruit or Full Member....that status has nothing to do with DKP other than the bidding proccess.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 9:52 pm

I know that I have only just come back but I'd like to think that I have been around enough to at least try to voice my thoughts on this subject. I see a few problems here with this whole thing. First, I think that the rules concerning this are convoluted and not applied across the board. Spine himself said it best when we were talking about it. He asked "Would I be kicked during spring cleaning? Would I have to app again? Would I have my DKP wiped?" If your answer to any of these questions is "No" then I do not see how you can in good conscious apply these rules to anyone else. I have always been told that if you leave guild in good standing, if/when you return you may return as a member with your DKP intact, though you are still unable to bid until your raid percentage is above the required amount. Personally, I think this is reasonable. People are still taking a penalty in that they can not bid right away. I thought a lot about this the other night when I saw that all my DKP had been lost (mind you I was removed during spring cleaning and I did not leave to go to another guild or something.) and this is what I came up with. Imagine for a moment that you work for a certain employer. Every paycheck you get you take and put into a savings account, spending just a little bit of it. Now imagine that you had to leave that job for some reason. Taking all of peoples DKP (when they leave on good terms) is exactly like that employer saying to you "Ok well you don't work for me anymore so you need to give me back all that pay that I paid you" Those members earned that, and them leaving the guild does not somehow nullify all that work that they did. As for making prior members (who are in good standing) app, I think that it is a pointless process. The leadership has raided with them, they have seen them and dealt with them personally. Why do we need to vet them again. It seems redundant to me and also inefficient. For me personally, I feel like people would not be officers if they could not be trusted to invite people who will not be a detriment to the guild. I almost feel like this is a subject that should be discussed among them. To be honest, a lot of this argument feels personal and that is not a way to start bringing up stuff in the guild. If it is a problem with the system then alright, lets fix it, however if this is some personal attack then I think we should drop it and trust in our leadership. If there is an officer that disagrees with someone that another officer adds then it should be taken between them.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:00 pm

i for 1 know Khanix Dareldorr (litefoots) Ellmo and i had to all reapp to GH if these return players realy want to be in GH they will do this no complaints if not well there are other guilds out there i love GH and i went threw it no problem
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:02 pm

Hi
Guess I missed a shit storm today but I saw this brewing as people have been sending me tells all week.
I am in agreement with Lucasp, Xyza, Rhayzer, Ellmadar & Daura.  People that left the guild of their own volition - many to graze in greener pastures - need to go through the app process again.  Why?  They made a choice to cut ties and move on - for whatever their reasons - and if the want to return I think they should have to prove themselves AND show they have a true desire to be part of GH.  That the guild is not another pit stop because the grass they thought was greener wasn't but they will stay in GH until something better comes along...again.
I put alot of time and effort into GH and I'm proud to be a part of our dysfunctional but quite talented family.  I take it seriously and I feel it is a knock against all of us that show up day in and day out that some can come and go as they please, whenever they feel the whim, without repercussions.
Also I think that members should get a chance to voice their opinions about returnees.  It is entirely possible that there could be reasons we might not want someone back.  I'm not saying this is the case now but it is a point to consider.
Anyway I hope that more discussion is had and EVERYONE should state how they feel about this.  Only with numbers, one way or the other, will our voices be considered.
~Aulu~

As for people wiped out in a Sarkus spring cleaning I find that to be entirely different.  I have never had issue with people dropped from guild simply because RL took over to be reinvited.  Sarkus has always reinvited without any formality and I think that is the right call.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:08 pm

This doesn't affect any of your hard work at all. I worked hard in my time in GH aswell. Think about what the app process is for. It's not for seeing whether someone jumps ship or not. 2 weeks wouldnt be long enough to gauge that anyway. The app process was created to test NEW PLAYERS and their abilities. The 30% rule is what was created to stop people from jumping ship. Even if i do not have to app i cannot bid on anything and it doesnt affect you in anyway.  If you had to re-app when you rejoined then that's on you. It sucks i suppose but that doesn't make it law. I am not asking for my DKP back or anything like that. i chose to leave and i should have to forfeit my DKP. but putting me on 2 week app period is not gonna prove anything to anyone. That is not what the app period is designed for. This is all about self satisfaction and feeling important. Stop comparing yourself to other players in how hard you worked on your character when none of this process is affecting you and your gameplay.

Regardless of the outcome ill do what i'm told. These are merely my opinions.
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PostSubject: returning people   Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:13 pm

I am posting about the influx of returning players to our guild. Any person that leaves the guild for a period of time (a month to 3 months) should have to re-app. What ever there reasons for leaving makes no difference, its across the board and fair rule. They should have to start over with zero dkp and attendance.
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lucasp
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:24 pm

So if I leave in good standing and join another raiding guild and decide to come back, I get to keep my dkp and come back full member? Sweet...I'll see you all in a few months-evil grin-
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sat Dec 28, 2013 11:11 pm

None of you have made a logical argument as to WHY we have to re-app....Losing DKP is fine, i understand that. But you're using the application process the wrong way. It's not meant for returning players. tell me what re-apping proves. They cant bid on any raid loot anyway, thats what the 30% attendance rule is for. The application process is for NEW PLAYERS.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:07 am

Rokuu, the reason why you have to reapp is because you left for greener pastures and told GH that you were no longer interested in GH because your friends were in LU. This is an indicator that your friends may return and you are just passing time until their second coming. As I have witnessed, you are shuttled in to the guild under the guise of "let's be friends" when in all reality your history dictates that you are going to leave again under the right circumstance.  Being people are creatures are habit, your habit is to bail when it is convenient. And in a few years, you will pull the same stunt. For this reason, we have people apply each time to see if they are seriously committed to the guild or their friends in other guilds.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:17 am

Also, a spring cleaning is different from up and leave.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:27 am

I guess what I don't understand is why someone leaving to be with their friends is so bad. This is a game and we all come on to enjoy ourselves...at least I hope we do. I can understand the want to be with your friends in game. That is the reason GH is my home, this is where my friends are, where my family is. I understand that being down one player can be a detriment so in that way it does set the guild back in raiding, but you guys make it seem like if a person leaves then they are no longer your friend. Like they are no longer a friend of the guild. Like when someone leaves then all the good they did for the guild is gone, like it never happened. I don't understand how the chance that someone might leave the guild in the future negates what they can do for the guild now. There is a chance any one of us could leave the guild at some point in the future (except maybe Spine) but we don't hold that against each other. I am trying really hard to see both sides of this argument, I am not posting trying to start crap, I just want to understand. 

For me I guess it just comes back to, I think the officers and leader need to have a discussion so that they can decide what they think is best for the guild and then lay it in stone and stick to it. Daura is right, there should be something said about this in the code of conduct that way the policy is there for all to read. As always I support our leadership in their decisions and will do my best to be and upstanding member of this guild.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:31 am

Not really, i only left from GH to LU because my friends were there and their raid schedule fits mine better. I left with no issues or negativity. I left LU because i quit the game entirely and was guildless and not playing the game for a year and a half. When i returned to the game a week ago or so i made the decision to come back here because my friends in LU no longer play. In no way shape or form do i hop from guild to guild. I didn't leave LU to come here. And you STILL have not given me a reason as to why i should app and how it benefits anything. You're basically just saying i need to re-app because i need to re-app. That's not a logical reason. This is not what the application system is for.
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lucasp
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:50 am

The app process not only tests skills for new folks to guild but also tests your commitment to showing up for raids. Thus far I see where folks have raided a couple events and bailed, or in some cases...haven't even showed up at all.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:53 am

So once again, my point is proven against you, Rokuu. Our raid times don't match your needs and your LU friends are not here. So with your logic, we should make a cover invite to the whole server?  If you did not leave to come here, where did you come from? Another reason for app. Were you a part of the cleaning or did you just leave?  A good reason for the app process. Dont you think. OH, is that logical? You know to request where people have been is probably a good idea or should we just have blind faith in random invites across servers?  Once again, you think we are fools and lack merit in our questions. But, there are reasons that your appearance on our roster raise questions. The sadness is that no matter how we try to explain to you, our reasons will not be good enough for you.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:08 am

No Lucasp, that is what the 30% attendance rule is for. you cant see anyones commitment in 2 weeks.  You guys completely confuse the purpose of these rules. I CANNOT bid on anything anyway so what purpose does the app process serve? It is meant to test the abilities and attitude of new players which i am far beyond that point with GH. I am a returning player. If my abilities and attitude was in question, i would not have gotten the invite in the first place. If it is my commitment you are questioning then youll want to see me raise my attendance and by the time i get to a % where i can actually bid on something, my commitment should have been proven. Hence the entire reasoning for the 30% system.


Rhayzer if you actually had questions like that for me then you could ask me, it doesnt take 2 weeks to do that. But your real problem has nothing to do with this. You only have an issue with me because i stuck up for Kindoz once. Atleast man up and admit that instead of pretending like you are trying to stand up for a just cause.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:27 am

As said, you asked for logic. You got logic. That is what apps are for and you are still complaining about apps and raid attendence. People do not want to have to ask every person that applies where they were and how they got removed from the guild. That is why new people are supposed to be understanding about this process. As far as the raid attendence goes, MAYBE we do need to raise the current requirements considering your history of leaving the guild for greener pastures. And yes, you were never around long enough for people to know you. Your attitude is also the same. We never knew who you were because you had hardly any raid attendence and/or guild group besides your current favorite people. You are luke warm because people do not remember you or they can remember you and do not want to stir the pot and get people curious about your presence and your skill level. By the way, what do you bring to GH? What kind of AA do you have? Oh you just came back, do you know the spell sets? Do you have any flags?  If so, what flags do you have? These are more questions so people can assist you in being able to attend raids and help you with gear and spells.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:42 am

Rokuu i dont know how u think u know why 30% rule is there but reason 30% rule is for LONG TIME MEMBERS that dont raid alot  get seconds on loot befor apps is why u should be a app for the 2 weeks or more so we can see if u will stay not saying u using us just want to see if u realy want to be in GH for the long hall so why that make u mad. Tef  said he will app he has no problems so why do u?
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:44 am

lol you're full of shit Rhayzer. keep trying to act like i guild hop when i gave plenty good reasoning as to why its not true. Keep the hate coming buddy, you're too immature to admit that this all started because i didn't let you walk all over Kindoz and I. Reality check, kid.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:44 am

Rokuu wrote:
Rhayzer if you actually had questions like that for me then you could ask me, it doesnt take 2 weeks to do that. But your real problem has nothing to do with this. You only have an issue with me because i stuck up for Kindoz once. Atleast man up and admit that instead of pretending like you are trying to stand up for a just cause.

My personal business with Kindoz is truly seperate of this thread. But, how dare you think that I am only picking an issue and riding the wave. This thread  shows your pompous attitude to think that I am a one track person. Once again, if you were here long enough, you would know that I will speak my mind and then let it go. The quickest and easiest thing to know is that I am not begging for your forgiveness or anyone else about my conduct. And your memory of Spinecrak banning me from raids, he and I got into a disagreement because we had a difference of opinions. Once again. not your business.  Also, if you remember, I raided with Sarkus during that time. Oh wow, you forgot. It was just Spinecrak that did not want me because I was causing a stink about the people he was bringing into the guild from AH. Spinecrak has since returned and that wand of despair is shared with Kindoz as he lies and tricks new mains into raiding AH. Hence the comments about raiding Velishan's revenge. I know personally that some of the people in raid were locked out of that task. However, the establishment tried to do a JEDI mind trick and make people forget. SO, before you come here after a 2 year hiatus and think you know everything after two days, please be quiet and accept our kindness as they allow you to raid and get flags so you can prepare to move to another guild, AGAIN.
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PostSubject: Re: The APP process and returning players   Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:47 am

Rokuu wrote:
lol you're full of shit Rhayzer. keep trying to act like i guild hop when i gave plenty good reasoning as to why its not true. Keep the hate coming buddy, you're too immature to admit that this all started because i didn't let you walk all over Kindoz and I. Reality check, kid.

And the attitude shows. Reality check kid. Yes, further communication with you is void because of an inability to successfully communicate thoughts and feelings. And I will not lower myself in a public forum to quarrel over your failed application status.
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